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Bexit, May, and the European Union

Posted: Mon May 06, 2019 6:21 pm
by Sephiroth9611
For those in the UK, what are your thoughts on Brexit? Good, the sooner the better? Bad, it's the end of the world?

What do you think of the major players involved? May, Corbyn, Farage? Are you in favor of a second referendum?

Re: Bexit, May, and the European Union

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 9:52 pm
by The Real Uncle Elmo
First the Sonic trailer, and now this?!!

I'm a die hard remainer, so the fact you've listed Farage as a major player makes me cringe (you're right of course).
I'm very much in favour of a second referendum. It'll never happen though.
I think it's the worst mistake the country has ever made.

Re: Bexit, May, and the European Union

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 9:55 pm
by Sephiroth9611
Elmo, can you elaborate on why remaining is just so essential? I've talked to people on the other side who are just as convinced that remaining would be the worst mistake.

Re: Bexit, May, and the European Union

Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 11:52 am
by The Real Uncle Elmo
There are many benefits to EU membership. I live in one of the most impoverished areas in the whole of Europe Wales is very much in credit, thanks to the EU, however due to the blatant lying (on both sides, but Leave.EU's wrongdoing was illegal) and stoking the fires of xenophobia, my country voted "Leave".

We could have influenced EU policy from the inside, now we can't.
We are also a MUCH weaker trade partner alone.

Re: Bexit, May, and the European Union

Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:18 pm
by Clidus
Brexit just makes me sad at this point.

The 2016 referendum was a joke. It’s been claimed again and again that we voted for Brexit, but really the 51-48% result was so close that mathematicians would view it as a rounding error. The reality is (and why the process since then has been such a mess with zero agreement on anything) is the entire country was split 50/50. A lot of people were lied too, a lot of people were not correctly informed, and a lot of people were idiots (some people at work literally told me they voted leave because they wanted to be on the “winning” side of the vote, and didn’t actually understand the decision being made at all).

May has acted horrendously trying to force her solution through, and her solution itself is simply to delay problems. The Northern Ireland backstop doesn’t solve the NI problem with leaving the Union, it simply delays it. There is no solution to NI unless Ireland becomes hole again and leaves the UK.

It’s an incredible mess and I’m sad every day that the referendum happened.

Re: Bexit, May, and the European Union

Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:26 pm
by SOLDIERofficer81
Was this majority issue discussed ahead of time? Was there ever any suggestion by anyone that Brexit would need a supermajority of the vote, a supermajority of the entire electorate, for approval?

Re: Bexit, May, and the European Union

Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 7:40 pm
by Clidus
The referendum was never intended to be legally binding or to even have the result it did. The Government at the time did it with the intention of Remain winning to end the anti-Europe discussion.

To say it backfired on their face is an understatement. It’s why David Cameron resigned and we ended up with May.

Re: Bexit, May, and the European Union

Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 9:13 pm
by Sephiroth9611
The person I was talking to about this originally had posted an article at a different forum. He excerpted the following in his post:

much ink has been spilt over the past three years which says that Brexit was the harbinger of populism in the UK, indeed the precursor of a wider populism across the West.

I wonder whether if, when the history of this period is written, the referendum itself might be considered as mere prologue to the main populist act; that ultimately, the referendum will be best understood as the apotheosis of a eurosceptic battle, not as the populist war itself.

After all, euroscepticism has long been a deep vein of British political life. Brexit wasn't, as the lazy caricature so often goes, a populist revolt of the working classes. It was a narrowly won but solid rejection of the European Union by leafy Hampshire and Surrey commuter towns along with Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire pit villages - a rejection which was based on accumulated decades of political activity and sustained suspicion towards the union's political legitimacy among the general population.

It was not so much people versus elites but a clear coalition of wealthy and poor, connected and isolated, northern and southern. Far from an outsider clique, its campaign leaders were senior cabinet ministers.

Moreover, it was if anything an expression of faith in the strength and durability of the British political system and in its leaders.

Voters were certain that their wishes in the referendum would be carried out without too much difficulty: I lost count of the numbers of voters who, during the referendum and since, dismissed concerns about our withdrawal, not only from the EU but of its myriad political, economic and social auspices, with a variant of the following reply: "I'm sure they can sort it out."

In other words the Brexit vote, as well as a cri de coeur for Westminster to listen, was also an affirmation of faith by the British public in the fundamental competence of the British state to prosecute even the most difficult political outcomes.

Contrast that with the malaise of today. Remainers and Leavers alike despair at the paralysis which has enveloped our political system. Faith in our democratic institutions and its custodians has never been lower. In the maelstrom of the last few months, virtually every organ of British politics has been completely discredited.

The opposition, the usual beneficiary of democratic discontent, is considered as culpable as the government.

A substantial proportion of the population believe that those same institutions in which they put their faith in 2016 have been knowingly sabotaged: that democracy itself is being subverted for nefarious ends, and worse, the perpetrators have done so as the world watches and in so doing humiliated a once great nation.

Our subsequent conversation:

Seph:
Nice article on Brexit.
Him:
Thanks
We were mired deep on another topic on discord so couldn't chuck it there but wanted to post it somewhere
Seph:
What do you think is going to happen? Second referendum?
Him:
I genuinely don't know
There's no clear parliamentary route
Too many opponents of each option
I voted leave
But think it may need a 2nd ref to break deadlock
I used to be against it
Seph:
Do you support a deal or hard Brexit?
Him:
In many ways a false choice
We leave with no deal
Seph:
Did Rees Mogg sell out in your mind by backing a deal?
Him:
As soon as we go back to the EU
They'll demand what they wanted before
I also don't think the deal is that bad
He did and didn't
He was an idiot for being so purist
Seph:
Should/can the queen step in constitutionally and fiat a solution? :)
Him:
Ha
The choice is the deal or no brexit
Right now
I'm torn
I think the current lot of brexiteers will just enable socialism
But
I remain fundamentally unconvinced by the European project
So
Seph:
I would not want to be in the EU, no.
Him:
I don't want 5 years of Corbyn either
I'm not sure what is worse at this stage
Especially a Corbyn unrestrained by hard brexit
It'll be disaster socialism
Seph:
That kind of attitude won't be tolerated in Airstrip One. Better adopt some doublethink.
Him:
Yup
All depressing
Thats why I liked that article so much
My vote to leave was a vote of confidence in the British establishment to a certain extent
In the broadest sense
And they've failed
I wasn't an aggrieved ex miner
Arguably an element of naiveté
But we've typically been well governed
So assumed brexit would be somewhat messy
Also we're not France lol
Riots in Paris for God knows how long
So eh