2020 elections and current politics

A place to discuss religious, political and any other serious issues. Those who are easily offended are asked to steer clear.

Moderator: The Slider

User avatar
SOLDIERofficer81
Posts: 208
Location: 7th Heaven

Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#31 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:31 pm

I haven't seen a clarification, only statements that the quote was taken out of context. Referring to the Patriot Act is possible. But why be so vague?

No matter what she was saying, she's not a very effective speaker.
"Let us never miss a step. May we never lose our friends. This is our home, our haven, our Citadel."
Citadel denizen since October 5, 2000 | SOLDIER's Final Fantasy VII Messageboard

User avatar
Sephiroth9611
Of Hidden Rank
Posts: 231
Location: Off-world colonies
Contact:

Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#32 » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:00 pm

DeathScythe wrote:One thing I like to remind everyone during the global warming debate, is that there are other reasons not to pollute besides global warming. Such as: having clean air, water, and soil, as that relates to wildlife and agriculture, but also human health. Motor vehicles emit a plethora of gases and particles that lead to respiratory problems, acid rain, etc. There are also spills. Some of these issues are harder to dispute than the affect of carbon dioxide and other gasses on global warming.

I think a lot of that has been left by the wayside in the bid to stop global warming at all costs. "Give a hoot, don't pollute" and all that. No one brings up recycling anymore or stopping littering. I think the biggest victory I've seen for the environment in the past twenty years is the fight to cut down on public smoking. Living in a college town, cigarette butts have all but disappeared around campus.

See, I thought this was obvious, but it's a sickle and hammer super-imposed with an anarchist "A" symbol. Also the whole thing is red and black which are colors typically associated with anarchic symbolism.

I typically take it to represent anarcho-communism or anarcho-syndicalism, but it represents libertarian socialism just fine too, and it's provocative. All of these ideologies fall under the left-libertarian umbrella.

That's what I thought, but I wanted to see what you gave for an explanation. These symbols are not something I keep up on. :)

I didn't know you were deaf! How has that never come up? I can see how that would make modern web difficult. I've recently been trying to learn basic signs to talk to a deaf associate I work with, so we don't have to use the note cards all the time. It's pretty cool, but doesn't translate to Rosetta Stone format unfortunately.

I wasn't deaf when I first got to the Citadel. It just never came up, I guess.

Sign language is hard! It comes in multiple forms too. American Sign Language is basically French in its syntax since it was invented by a Frenchman. Then there is signed English, which is more word for word English. Then there are other mish-mashes.

I didn't think about Buckley's successors at National Review really, by Buckleys I meant, the popular intelligentsia of the right.

I sort of like the new crop. Some are clowns, but I like Shapiro and Jordan Peterson because they can debate, although I acknowledge flaws I think I see in their logic (usually religion with those two). With Milo, I liked the idea of a prominent gay conservative in popular media, but I'm pretty sure it was a character. I also think Ann Coulter is a character. He went too far, anyway, and probably would have ultimately made us look worse.

Any thoughts on Alex Jones?

Most of those guys are just hawking books. Thanks to the Web, everyone has a tip jar and a sidebar with links to Amazon. :P

I don't know much about Peterson. I only really became aware of him this last year. I go along doing my thing, reading the blogs I usually hit, and suddenly Peterson was being referenced as progressives attacked him and his supporters defended him.

I don't pay much attention to Ann. If being bitchy is all a persona, she does it very well.

I don't have much to say about Alex. I know who he is and that he has a show and that's about it.

I don't really follow her, and didn't know who she was until her supporters snapped at Chelsea Clinton.

I saw the video of the supporter bawling out Chelsea. That was a little shocking for me as someone who is about Chelsea's age.
Since October 3rd, 2000 | "Quite a thing to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave."

User avatar
DeathScythe
Antiquated Ska fan
Posts: 85
Location: Texas

Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#33 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:46 pm

I haven't seen a clarification, only statements that the quote was taken out of context. Referring to the Patriot Act is possible. But why be so vague?

No matter what she was saying, she's not a very effective speaker.


I'd say that's accurate. Also, CAIR was founded in 1994, not post-9/11.

I imagine that word choice might be difficult when speaking to a crowd of Muslims about 9/11, especially if you yourself are one.

I think a lot of that has been left by the wayside in the bid to stop global warming at all costs. "Give a hoot, don't pollute" and all that. No one brings up recycling anymore or stopping littering. I think the biggest victory I've seen for the environment in the past twenty years is the fight to cut down on public smoking. Living in a college town, cigarette butts have all but disappeared around campus.


I'm not a big recycler. The recycling industry has a number of issues, and always has: Aluminum is really the only profitable item we recycle, and people will dig it out of your trash anyway... Much of our recycle is discarded due to contamination... The huge recycling trucks are burning fossil fuels... There is often greater carbon footprint for recycling an item as opposed to making new...

Cigarette smoking is a good example of an environmental improvement though. We also have more forested area in the U.S. now than we did 100 years ago, thanks to the paper industry. Which is another great point about recycling! A very high percentage of consumer paper comes from tree farms, kept in rotation. If consumer demand for paper exceeds supply, the paper companies will buy additional land to turn into tree farms. And so, if you want there to be more trees in America....waste paper. Sound logic I think?

You're right, I haven't seen anything anti-littering in a while. Even the "Don't Mess With Texas" campaigns I used to see. But, I also pretty much never watch TV.

That's what I thought, but I wanted to see what you gave for an explanation. These symbols are not something I keep up on. :)


On the topic of radical politics and Catholicism: Liberation theology! What are your thoughts on Samuel Ruiz and his work?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Ruiz

How familiar are you with the situation in Chiapas and the EZLN?

He had his own points of disagreement with the Vatican, but was beloved locally by the indigenous Mexicans he served. He was invited to step down by the Vatican, arrested by the Mexican government, shot at, and continued to serve as Bishop until he turned 75.

Sign language is hard! It comes in multiple forms too. American Sign Language is basically French in its syntax since it was invented by a Frenchman. Then there is signed English, which is more word for word English. Then there are other mish-mashes.


I don't struggle with Romantic syntax so I'll probably be fine once I purchase some resources.

Would any person communicating with ASL also understand Signed English? For example, same words but syntax is different?

I saw the video of the supporter bawling out Chelsea. That was a little shocking for me as someone who is about Chelsea's age.


I was shocked as well, but not surprised. Handled like her mom would have, I thought. I think the quote was, "I'm sorry you feel that way".

User avatar
Sephiroth9611
Of Hidden Rank
Posts: 231
Location: Off-world colonies
Contact:

Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#34 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:09 pm

DeathScythe wrote:On the topic of radical politics and Catholicism: Liberation theology! What are your thoughts on Samuel Ruiz and his work?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Ruiz

How familiar are you with the situation in Chiapas and the EZLN?

I have probably heard of him before, but I haven't read about him. Just on the surface, the fact he isn't dressed as a priest/bishop in that picture says something to me. His work as related by Wiki looks pretty noble, but there isn't much detail on what things were like on the ground. Was the Faith beyond mere social justice activities furthered? Young men encouraged to be priests?

I don't struggle with Romantic syntax so I'll probably be fine once I purchase some resources.

Would any person communicating with ASL also understand Signed English? For example, same words but syntax is different?

The hard parts involve the abstract concepts that don't have direct English equivalents unless you fingerspell out each English word. ASL and signed English are more or less mutually intelligible except for cases like that that make certain ASL things hard to decipher unless you know what's going on with ASL and how it expresses things.

I was shocked as well, but not surprised. Handled like her mom would have, I thought. I think the quote was, "I'm sorry you feel that way".

The Clinton mantra goes back a long way: "I feel your pain."
Since October 3rd, 2000 | "Quite a thing to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave."

Saber
Posts: 9

Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#35 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:10 pm

DeathScythe wrote:
I sort of like the new crop. Some are clowns, but I like Shapiro and Jordan Peterson because they can debate, although I acknowledge flaws I think I see in their logic (usually religion with those two). With Milo, I liked the idea of a prominent gay conservative in popular media, but I'm pretty sure it was a character. I also think Ann Coulter is a character. He went too far, anyway, and probably would have ultimately made us look worse.


I'd be interested to see what you thought of the Peterson vs Zizek debate last night.

I felt it was, frankly, an utter destruction of Peterson. While the conversation was cordial, it appeared that Peterson had never even broached the work of Zizek or, really, much of any Marxist thought. He was thoroughly outclassed.

User avatar
Sephiroth9611
Of Hidden Rank
Posts: 231
Location: Off-world colonies
Contact:

Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#36 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 3:29 pm

DeathScythe wrote:
The United Methodist Church at a recent meeting reaffirmed narrowly the definition of marriage as between men and women. The SJWs were not happy and have gone forward with efforts to undermine things locally. I read somewhere an opinion piece about how the Methodists should look at what happened to the Episcopal Church and the Lutherans and realize separating peacefully is better than fighting it out for control.


I can tell you my Methodist church felt liberal at the time, considering it was a mainstream Christian church. That was most likely why I liked it; so this doesn't surprise me. I would have reccomended to them to simply maintain status quo. It really is only a matter of time before homosexuals are welcomed in the majority of Christiandom, maybe in the same way other sinners are, perhaps more so.

In light of our exchange above, I wanted to pass along this link to a story i read this morning.
Since October 3rd, 2000 | "Quite a thing to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave."

User avatar
DeathScythe
Antiquated Ska fan
Posts: 85
Location: Texas

Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#37 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:21 am

Sorry for the delay, I knew this would take some time.

I have probably heard of him before, but I haven't read about him. Just on the surface, the fact he isn't dressed as a priest/bishop in that picture says something to me. His work as related by Wiki looks pretty noble, but there isn't much detail on what things were like on the ground. Was the Faith beyond mere social justice activities furthered? Young men encouraged to be priests?


When you say him not being dressed as a priest says something to you, is that something negative or positive? I know he retired at age 75 (not when the Vatican "invited" him to resign), so would it be normal for a retired Bishop to continue wear the traditional garb?

I read a really interesting article about him around the time of that reply, that I can now not find unfortunately. I found this article though:

https://www.americamagazine.org/politic ... ncis-spoke

Of note:

In his practice, being an autochthonous church meant incorporating indigenous traditions in the church and welcoming the participation of indigenous people in a region whose inhabitants had never been treated as equals by European colonizers and their descendants. Bishop Ruiz ordained hundreds of indigenous deacons and translated the Bible into Tzeltal, one of the many local Mayan dialects...
...Some of his most important reforms were contested; the Vatican banned the ordination of indigenous deacons soon after his resignation. In a February 2002 letter to Bishop Ruiz’s successor, Felipe Arizmendi, the Vatican stated it feared indigenous deacons would deviate too far from traditional church doctrine and that the liberal interpretation of the responsibilities of deacons and their wives would be a poor example to other indigenous dioceses across the globe. Some feared the married deacons were a first step toward a married priesthood.


Which I would summarize as: he spread his version, of your faith. Translation into Mayan, though, carries an incredible weight that transcends his lifetime.

What I really want you to read though, is not that link above, but this official release from the Marxist leadership of the rebel group, EZLN, after his death in 2011.

I have never seen, nor would I have imagined, such praise given to a Catholic, and Catholicism in general (although not necessarily the Vatican), from a group with that ,traditionally atheist, ideology:

https://elenemigocomun.net/2011/01/ezln ... muel-ruiz/

The hard parts involve the abstract concepts that don't have direct English equivalents unless you fingerspell out each English word. ASL and signed English are more or less mutually intelligible except for cases like that that make certain ASL things hard to decipher unless you know what's going on with ASL and how it expresses things.

Do you know of any good resources for learning? Because I really need to figure something out. He gets by really well with reading lips and writing things (when he's able), but I think I'm the Lead that he struggles to communicate with the most. He tries to speak, but I usually misinterpret, and then it's right back to writing things down. I then feel bad for not understanding, and I can only imagine how he feels.

I'd be interested to see what you thought of the Peterson vs Zizek debate last night.

I felt it was, frankly, an utter destruction of Peterson. While the conversation was cordial, it appeared that Peterson had never even broached the work of Zizek or, really, much of any Marxist thought. He was thoroughly outclassed.


Saber! Another person joins!

I will check out this debate on my commute tomorrow (where I consume all of my longer audio), and will comment back tomorrow.

I don't view Peterson as necessarily very smart, especially when outside his field. He has certainly destroyed some people on certain topics (the Channel 4 lady who debated him about the gender pay gap last year), but I have seen him bested on issues by people like Joe Rogan. Certainly Sam Harris. He has areas where he's really impressive and knowledgeable, but other areas where it is clear he is taking a side because of ideology rather than facts. Since he likes to call what most of us refer to as "SJWs", "Post-modern Marxists", I would guess he doesn't know much about Marx?

User avatar
Sephiroth9611
Of Hidden Rank
Posts: 231
Location: Off-world colonies
Contact:

Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#38 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:23 pm

DeathScythe wrote:Sorry for the delay, I knew this would take some time.

No problem. Just glad to have someone new to talk to. :)

When you say him not being dressed as a priest says something to you, is that something negative or positive? I know he retired at age 75 (not when the Vatican "invited" him to resign), so would it be normal for a retired Bishop to continue wear the traditional garb?

Negative. Trads are always suspicious of priests and bishops who don't want to dress like priests and bishops. For Catholics, it's not just a job, it's a state of being, an "ontological" change. When priests don't want to dress the part, it usually means they are pushing the idea that there is not much difference between clergy and laity.

Your quote from America:
In his practice, being an autochthonous church meant incorporating indigenous traditions in the church and welcoming the participation of indigenous people in a region whose inhabitants had never been treated as equals by European colonizers and their descendants. Bishop Ruiz ordained hundreds of indigenous deacons and translated the Bible into Tzeltal, one of the many local Mayan dialects...
...Some of his most important reforms were contested; the Vatican banned the ordination of indigenous deacons soon after his resignation. In a February 2002 letter to Bishop Ruiz’s successor, Felipe Arizmendi, the Vatican stated it feared indigenous deacons would deviate too far from traditional church doctrine and that the liberal interpretation of the responsibilities of deacons and their wives would be a poor example to other indigenous dioceses across the globe. Some feared the married deacons were a first step toward a married priesthood.


Pushing deacons as subs for priests... Right now this year, there is a synod that is going to meet in South America where it is expected that married priests will be on the agenda, allowing men of good character (read married deacons, etc.) to join the priesthood.

Which I would summarize as: he spread his version, of your faith. Translation into Mayan, though, carries an incredible weight that transcends his lifetime.

Nothing wrong with a Bible translation, if translated well. But it's not his job to be pushing /his/ version of the Faith. In the quote above, it talks about incorporating indigenous traditions. That is usually code for other less benevolent things.

Whatever he was doing, it didn't work, at least as far as spreading the Catholic Faith:
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dsncr.html Scroll down to the table with figures on the numbers of Catholics, priests, religious, etc. In 1958, the year before Bishop Ruiz was appointed, the percentage of Catholics was 97.4 percent. In 2000 when he retired, it was 76.9 percent. Given the years on either side give figures in the sixties, I'm assuming that was some kind of misreporting.

So:

What I really want you to read though, is not that link above, but this official release from the Marxist leadership of the rebel group, EZLN, after his death in 2011.

I have never seen, nor would I have imagined, such praise given to a Catholic, and Catholicism in general (although not necessarily the Vatican), from a group with that ,traditionally atheist, ideology:

https://elenemigocomun.net/2011/01/ezln ... muel-ruiz/

That's all well and good. The Church should work to alleviate the suffering of the poor. But a priest's first duty is the saving of souls, getting his flock into Heaven. Earning the plaudits of marxists while watching the percentage of Catholics in the diocese fall by twenty or thirty percent suggests to me that he failed fundamentally as a bishop.

Do you know of any good resources for learning? Because I really need to figure something out. He gets by really well with reading lips and writing things (when he's able), but I think I'm the Lead that he struggles to communicate with the most. He tries to speak, but I usually misinterpret, and then it's right back to writing things down. I then feel bad for not understanding, and I can only imagine how he feels.

All my learning has come through one-on-one lessons with speech therapists. This looks pretty decent: http://www.signlanguage101.com/ Just google ASL lessons for more options. You should go with the flow though and follow his lead. If he is most comfortable writing things down with non-signers, then go with that. The most important thing is being honest and asking for clarification when needed to avoid misunderstandings. A lot of my therapy lessons had to do with "repairs" like that.

Saber! Another person joins!

Yay!
Last edited by Sephiroth9611 on Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Since October 3rd, 2000 | "Quite a thing to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave."

User avatar
DeathScythe
Antiquated Ska fan
Posts: 85
Location: Texas

Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#39 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:47 am

Okay, so I've watched the Peterson-Zizek debate, and I do have some different thoughts on it than yourself I think.

First, this debate format sucks. "Marxism", by itself without any qualifiers, is a terrible topic for a debate because of how many different interpretations there are of it. The other aspect of the debate was to relate it to "happiness", which is another multi-faceted word.

You are correct that it looked like Peterson hadn't done prior research of Zizek, but I don't know that that's a knock on him. If a debate has a set topic (Marxism) it's fair to assume you're going to stay on point regardless of the other person. Peterson, not being a socialist himself, isn't aware how "cafeteria Marxism" works in modern socialism. They prepared for different debates.

Peterson looks poised to debate conventional Marxist ideas, as he mentions in his intro: the "dictatorship of the proletariat" for example (I also found it amusing that Peterson mentions learning of this in his debate prep... like I said, he's not that strong out of his field), which is a totally reasonable thing to assume you can attack if you are debating Marxism. But, Zizek doesn't believe in that part! Of course, neither do I. So, he's about as Marxist as me, and I don't call myself a Marxist...I call myself, a libertarian socialist. Zizek however, does call himself a Marxist, and at no point does he ever define what that means to him, other than, as he said to Peterson, "If I used your definition of Marxism, I wouldn't be one." and he agrees with several other criticisms Peterson has of Marx.

Zizek is a compelling speaker, and he makes good arguments against Capitalism here, but not necessarily for Marxism, the subject of the debate. He did question Peterson on referring to SJWs as Marxists, which I have been waiting for someone to do. Zizek calls them PC left-wingers or something. My favorite term is "the authoritarian left". Peterson dodges it I think, talking about "post-modernism" again.

Peterson also questions Zizek on why he calls himself a Marxist if he only keeps a few pieces of it, which I don't think Zizek really answers, but that's funny because Peterson does the same thing with Christianity. All of that's lost on both of them. I wonder if Peterson can see the contradiction between attacking Zizek because he calls himself a Marxist despite rejecting much of it, and him calling the authoritarian left "Marxist" despite their focus being primarily on social issues.

I don't know if this was even a debate, but I wouldn't agree that Peterson, or Zizek, were destroyed here. Peterson had some moments, the dig at the moderator towards the end, for example. It was an interesting discussion, though, and I thought both men were very cordial and polite. The audience was abysmal.
Last edited by DeathScythe on Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
DeathScythe
Antiquated Ska fan
Posts: 85
Location: Texas

Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#40 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:27 am

Seph, you get your own post.

Negative. Trads are always suspicious of priests and bishops who don't want to dress like priests and bishops. For Catholics, it's not just a job, it's a state of being, an "ontological" change. When priests don't want to dress the part, it usually means they are pushing the idea that there is not much difference between clergy and laity.


What if they don't dress the part, but also aren't pushing the idea of clergy and laity being the same? For instance, if the message is that the clothes don't make the faith, or the clergyman? I know; I have a protestant mindset.

Pushing deacons as subs for priests... Right now this year, there is a synod that is going to meet in South America where it is expected that married priests will be on the agenda, allowing men of good character (read married deacons, etc.) to join the priesthood.


I'm getting the impression that deacons are allowed to be married, but above that rank, you're not? (I really know nothing.) I'm also getting the impression that you would be similarly opposed to priests being married. This is because Jesus wasn't married? Anyway, if the receptive individuals you find in an indigenous population that you want to bring into the Catholic faith are almost exclusively married, what's the better strategy to pushing deacons?

Nothing wrong with a Bible translation, if translated well. But it's not his job to be pushing /his/ version of the Faith. In the quote above, it talks about incorporating indigenous traditions. That is usually code for other less benevolent things.


This is a fundamental difference between us I wasn't expecting. Protestantism pushes a "personal relationship" with Jesus/God and you're supposed to...interpret. As far as incorporating indigenous traditions, you're probably thinking something like Santeria, while I'm thinking...Christmas falling on the Winter Solstice....Easter being named for the Saxon goddess Eostre....I'm avoiding some more controversial ones to not offend you.

Whatever he was doing, it didn't work, at least as far as spreading the Catholic Faith:
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dsncr.html Scroll down to the table with figures on the numbers of Catholics, priests, religious, etc. In 1958, the year before Bishop Ruiz was appointed, the percentage of Catholics was 97.4 percent. In 2000 when he retired, it was 76.9 percent. Given the years on either side give figures in the sixties, I'm assuming that was some kind of misreporting.
...
That's all well and good. The Church should work to alleviate the suffering of the poor. But a priest's first duty is the saving of souls, getting his flock into Heaven. Earning the plaudits of marxists while watching the percentage of Catholics in the diocese fall by twenty or thirty percent suggests to me that he failed fundamentally as a bishop.


That is a really interesting link; I love data. Supplemental reading about Chiapas tells me that there was a lot of immigration to the region from other indigenous groups (not Mestizos, the previously converted), and the poplulation change shown here would support that.

You must consider the drastic change in the total when looking at the percentage. At no point does the number of Catholics decrease during his tenure. It actually almost doubles, from 609k at the start in 1958, to 1.18M when he leaves the Chiapas Diocese in 2000. (Remember that the Vatican puts a stop to his programs in 2002). You do see a slight drop in "Diocesan Priests", with an explosion of deacons though, to your point. You also see a major gain in "Religious Priests".

I should probably find out what these things actually mean, and what a deacon is, for instance. We'll save that for my next post. This is long.

EDIT: I do appreciate your input on sign language as well. I don't think he wants to write. That happens after it's clear I'm not understanding him. And we have one other deaf employee who I've seen him sign to, and he's fast and furious with it. If I were to learn sign language, I would be fluent. Linguistics was always my field of interest: I can grasp different grammar structures, syntax, even tonal languages. If I do it: I'm all in.
Last edited by DeathScythe on Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Return to “Serious Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron