Moderator: The Slider
I think if we just wait, society will fundamentally change on it's own, through technological progress.
Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders are the only candidates I have really been excited for in my adult life. I wish Ron had changed the GOP in the way Sanders' wing is shaping up to change the Dems.
Final thoughts: With our system so broken, does any of this matter? Hard to feel convinced it does. I'm very pessimistic regarding change happening democratically, and take solace in the idea that technology will come to force it.
Free college is a Democrat thing. But America overall is in love with college. If you're halfway intelligent, you have to go to college in order to have a fulfulling life. Or at least you have to experience college. Look no further than Aunt Becky who spent half a million dollars to send her dimwit daughters to college to go to games and party.
Ron changing the GOP was impossible. You don't change a mostly Conservative party. That's why there are so many fringe parties on the Right.
The system isn't broken. The people are. People are lazy. They'd rather post their opinion on Facebook or go to a protest than actually organize, recruit, vet, and elect men and women who are ready, willing, and able to serve.
Those of us who voted (quite a few have chose to opt out of the system) voted for Trump. Hillary and anyone who supports abortion rights is a non-starter as a candidate. Trump promised and has delivered on pro-life candidates (though the jury's still out on Kavanaugh not being wishy-washy). And he promised not to cave on immigration. That's still a work in progress, so we'll see. Those were the two most important issues in 2018. Other things he's done have been nice, like not being an out of control interventionist for the most part and NAFTA renegotiation.
Traditional Catholics, not run of the mill Catholics, would generally agree that college as it exists today is worthless as far as providing a sound education. People are graduating without a comprehensive liberal arts education; instead they're getting a hodgepodge of courses that aren't leading to a unitive whole. Wyoming Catholic College, Thomas Aquinas College in SoCal, and others, are places that offer only general liberal arts degrees without specialization. Sending kids for free to the diploma mills isn't going to help anything long term.
That's where I'm at. With all that in mind, I am pretty detached from events. Things probably aren't going to get any better regardless of who gets elected and they're most likely to get worse. Just a matter of who's going to press on the gas vs. who will do some braking.
DS, regarding your thinking on Biden, do you think he will be a viable candidate once his opponents start doing oppo research on his proclivity for getting touchy with the ladies?
DeathScythe wrote:Hey SOLDIER, nice to hear from you!
Good to see your faith is still strong. I'm thinking since you capitalized "Traditional", that means it's one of those independent varieties of Catholic; is that a new development or has that always been the case? I know that can mean a lot of different things. I'm guessing by and large they are more conservative than your average catholic since the mainstream has become pretty liberal.
I think that's pretty cool and exotic, though.
I'm not going to hold your litmus test against you, I have plenty of my own. You should consider how UBI might change society, the personal financial situation of young mothers, and the finances of young couples, and what that should lead to in terms of the abortion rate. Multiple roads to the same solution, so to speak, but this road does nothing to limit the freedom of mothers, and instead addresses a root cause (although certainly not the only one).
Curious as to why devout catholics are concerned with immigration, to the extent that it's one of the two most important issues. Although, a world in which the United States has UBI, would require a little more border security than we have now. I don't think the wall accomplishes much.
That's an interesting one, because the regressive left isn't tolerant of this. I can't say how it will play out, but I don't expect Democrats to bring this up on the debate stage. Bernie wouldn't even go low on Hillary.
I think because his actions are able to be described more aptly as "creepy" rather than "criminal", it's going to be swept under the rug, with the general thinking that it's not as egregious as things Trump has done or said.
I still think the contest unfolding as Bernie v Biden being the most likely scenario.
Trad Catholics come in a variety of flavors. 1) There are indies who are outside the institutional Church doing their own thing; they think the Catholic Church has gone totally off the rails. 2) There is a large org known as the SSPX, with associated groups, that has a complicated relationship with Rome. In some countries like France, it is producing more priests than the institutional Church. 3) And then there are groups within the institutional Church who are of the traditional mindset. They keep their heads down and do their thing. 4) Finally, there are small communities in the regular Church grouped around places where the pre-1970 Mass is held; these people run the gamut from serious Trad Catholics to folks who just like the aesthetic elements of the old Mass, but are otherwise average Catholics with mainstream sensibilities. Folks lament how Traditional Catholicism is pretty fractured. Also, terms like conservative are frowned upon. Traditional Catholics are not fond of classical liberalism. They view the relentless pursuit of personal freedom as a key component of society's problems today.
We'll have to agree to disagree then. No big secret that Catholics believe life begins at conception and abortion is murder.
Saints like Aquinas down through the centuries have written on the rights and obligations of the person and the state. People have the obligation to be charitable, but not at the expense of the integrity of their homes and communities. Mass migration of Third World peoples into the US isn't helping us or them long term. And as far as the bishops, the widely held view, confirmed now and then when the veil is down, is that the bishops push so hard for open borders because they see First World Americans leaving the Church en masse despite everything they've done to water down Catholic practice and need immigrants to fill the pews and pass the collection plates.
The chief politics bligger at a conservative blog I follow is pretty confirmed in his belief that Harris is the chosen one for the Dems this time around and the field will eventually be cleared for her. What do you think about her?
That's interesting. So where do you fall on this spectrum? I think it's reminiscent of the fractures in LDS, or even modern paganism and "traditional witchcraft" versus "Garnerian Wicca". Just in terms of doctrinal difference. I'm curious about it being so popular in France, the home of the Avignon Papacy.
So how does that mean you fall on the spectrum of overall Christianity? Do you see the mainstream Catholics as more of your natural ally, or perhaps protestants instead?
"Catholic" is one of the donominations I never visited when I was going through my religious experimentation phase. I did attend an Episcopalian church, which I figured was close.
If trad catholics don't like to identify as conservative, how do they prefer to identify in the U.S. political spectrum? Or are you all doing "least worst option" like me?
We do have evidence that the market is capable of determining the number of immigrants that come here on its own, through negative rates seen following the recession.
I agree that immigration it isn't a long term solution, and maybe even exacerbates issues in their homeland. I was going to ask about the idea you addressed here, of the immigrants being primarily Catholic, and how that influenced your thinking. Certainly the overall numbers of Americans identifying as Roman Catholic are higher than they would be without Latin American immigration, but I don't know if that actually does anything for you personally considering you are non-mainstream? I figure we're going to have a "non-religious" plurality in this country very shortly, you know, and you can look up how those numbers have been going.
Apparantly big news today that Biden's announcement was inadvertent, and maybe he's not running!? I should know better than to pay attention right now.
In that case, yes, Kamala is likely the chosen one, but I don't know that she beats Bernie. From what I can tell, she is one of these mainstream candidates that isn't really saying anything, speaking primarily in platitudes. She won't beat Trump. Basically Hillary Clinton; maybe less evil.
Also, full disclosure: I voted Obama 08, third party in 12, and third party in 16. If the Dems don't put up someone who I like, I don't vote for them. "Blue no matter who", means they need to vote for my candidate, because I'm not budging. In my view, they are a coercive institution that I support only begrudgingly, because I have no choice.
So I may not be the best example of standard Democratic thought, if that's what you're gauging.
I fall into number four, but with a trad mindset (though I mostly go to regular Masses due to logistics). Where I live in Iowa, there are not any Masses for two or three.
This gets into theology. In terms of how trads see society today, a lot of trads look at Putin and the Orthodox in Russia with not a little admiration. Orthodoxy in general though is seen as tainted; the patriarch in Istanbul is likes to style himself as the green patriarch. Evangelical protestants are seen as allies on abortion, but not anything else as they have no problems with birth control and their non-negotiable support of Israel is off-putting. Mainstream protestantism is just another organ for the SJWs of the world.
It can be. I like to follow the Episcopal Church. Since the seventies, it has fractured in much the same way the Catholic Church may be now. The EC brought in women clergy and updated its liturgy, beginning the process of fracture back then. And over the past twenty years, it has been pretty brutal with constant lawsuits over property. The national organization is seen a pretty underhanded and tyrannical. Lutherans, Methodists, and others have all faced the same thing with traditional elements facing SJWs. Even Baptists are trending left as the hardliners like Robertson and Falwell die away.
Least worst option or just opt out. If you have some time, read about Brent Bozell Jr. and his magazine Triumph. A lot of folks who know about him and his efforts back in the sixties and early seventies agree with his views to greater and lesser degrees. He and his associates saw the US as corrupted and called for a Catholic tribe to form as a society within a society. Disengage and wait for whatever was going to happen to happen. Bozell was expecting things to fall apart within the decade and when things didn't, he and his crew ran out of steam. But their analysis was on the mark and very prescient.
2. Immigrants show up in the US and the first generation is soundly Catholic. The second generation is culturally Catholic, and the third is as secular as everyone else as they are Americanized. Thus the bishops need /more/ immigrants. It is a vicious cycle. People would be better off staying home if they cared anything about keeping their families in the Faith.
What are your thoughts on a cashless society? You're positive on Yang and UBI. I agree with a lot of conservatives out there who see dystopianism in our future. Government gives citizens money to buy things, which then pays for government. There is no encouragement to save for the future; saving could even be penalized in a cashless society.
I've read she getting pushback too due to her record as a prosecutor. Apparently she wasn't all that nice to People of Color.
DeathScythe wrote:I was trying to determine if you'd fair better in North Texas. My state is 32% Catholic. This is hard to determine apparantly. Going by anything labeled as "latin mass", there are 43 in the state of Texas, but a lot of that could just be category 4. Some of these are labeled "Independent", some "Diocese". There are 9 labeled as "SSPX". I would have to drive to North Richland Hills for that, which isn't unreasonable.
I also found a place nearby, that's a "FSSP" run church. They claim to be the only church in Dallas where traditional latin mass and sacraments are given on a daily basis. Is that something different? It's not even mentioned on the latin mass website.
My limited experience basically supports those thoughts, especially mainstream versus evangelical. My Methodist church that I attended pretty regularly avoided all controversial political issues. We had sermons about the "Problem of Hell" or "Problem of Evil", book author controversies, and plenty of stuff I found interesting. Didn't seem SJW, but it was also 2006. I was told that Methodists, unlike some denominations, don't shy away from "textual criticism".
Whenever the Da Vinci Code movie came out, I was attending regularly, and they did a whole multi-Sunday series going into the various allegations made by Dan Brown in the book and basically debunked much of it.
In the end, the one thing my minister agreed with Dan Brown on, was the poor treatment of women in the historical Christian church (which means you guys). And that, while he didn't think Jesus was married, as Methodists, this idea doesn't offend us like it does our "Catholic brothers and sisters across the street." He got called up to the greater UMC organization and now trains pastors. I stopped going after that.
I later went to UU for a bit, and then back to my teenage non-religious self. I think Buddhism is useful but don't feel any need to...practice it.
Episcopalian was a one time attendance for me, but the sermon involved the priest(?) singing at us, and all of us singing back. Not me of course, because I thought I was in bizzaro land and had no idea what was happening. Atmosphere, at best, could be considered "gloomy".
I also once attended a Mormon church, and some message was being beamed in on a TV about I guess the state of the greater LDS organization. It was not very entertaining, and the people there begged me, "You have to come back again, this wasn't a normal day!", but I didn't. I was trying to attend them all, no time for repeats.
Not totally surprised the religion is taking an overall left turn. Protestantism has always responded to the cultural climate for means of recruitment.
Definitely see examples of this here in Texas. Is the phenomena the same regardless of ethnicity? We have some Vietnamese Catholic churches here.
How well do you think the federal government spends our tax money, Seph? Do you think they spend it wisely? Or do you think you could spend it better? You could, on principal, hand it over to your traditional Catholic organization if you choose, or some other charity.
How much do you know about Yang, Seph? If you have time, I would again reccomend Andrew Yang's interview with Joe Rogan on YouTube. It's actually closer to 2 hours in length, I was mistaken before. I would be curious what you thought of his whole platform, as he tells it. I feel like I am doing a poor job.
Yep, that's the case. Bernie is pretty popular with the black community though, and has some key endorsements there.
Heard talk today of a Beto/Kamala being the ticket that would be hardest for Trump to beat. I obviously don't agree with that at all.
I've heard various people on the authoritarian left talk about refusing to vote for a white man, or being tired of "old white guys", and Biden and Beto don't really check any diversity boxes. However, this kind of leftist also won't vote for Bernie. Biden is considering Stacey Abrams as a running mate, don't know if that helps him.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest