2020 elections and current politics

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DeathScythe
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2020 elections and current politics

Post#1 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:02 am

Hello everybody, let's talk about the 2020 election and current U.S. politics. I see it as a very dark area of American society.

Historically you probably know me a socialist guy. I was into democratic socialism before it was popular! These days, I'm far more critical of the government, which has led to an influx of anarchist thinking. Ultimately, my ideology has changed.

These days, I identify as a "libertarian socialist", and find myself most at home talking to others with left-libertarian ideologies. A lot of that is influenced by techno-utopianism. I have given up on things I was once very passionate about, and now focus on minimizing harm. I think if we just wait, society will fundamentally change on it's own, through technological progress.

The single most interesting candidate in my opinion is a democrat named Andrew Yang. I love that he is so focused on data. He has an hour long interview with Rogan that you can find on YouTube and is very interesting. It's essentially a single-issue campaign for UBI, although he does have other opinions. I don't expect him to do anything except get people thinking about automation, AI, and UBI, and that's just fine for now. I love that he is for national healthcare but against free college, which is exactly where I am.

My mainstream support otherwise is mostly for Gabbard and Sanders, although I have a preference now for Gabbard. Warren would be the compromise candidate between the progressives and mainstream, but I don't expect that to play out that way. I expect this to be Sanders v Biden the whole way. Sanders is harder to get excited for in a world where Andrew Yang exists, but he can be counted on for at least National Healthcare and to not be corrupt. I wish this free-college thing didn't get so much headway, although I appreciate the death of "socialism" as a dirty word and also the new converts we see amongst Gen Z. Too bad they're so mainstream.

For the GOP, I don't expect a serious primary contest. I don't dislike Trump as much as other liberals: I like the Chinese tariffs. I like the pulling back on foreign intervention. I like that there aren't any new stupid wars. I also liked the meeting with Kim Jong Un, after I didn't like the saber-rattling that preceded it. I like that he's pretty much the most pro-gay Republican president we've had (although it is a pretty low bar). I like that he's not an evangelical, and that part of the party seems to have become much weaker.

Don't get me wrong, it's totally back and forth with Trump. I don't like the lack of any ideological convictions, which allows him to withdraw from Syria but escalate in Venezuela and other contradictions. There's been plenty of others, but to summarize I don't like Trump when he acts in an authoritarian manner, but I like it when he acts in in non-authoritarian ways, and I like the economic nationalism. I would say it has been probably not as bad as a Clinton presidency. I wish he were Rand Paul. And I wish Rand Paul were Ron Paul.

Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders are the only candidates I have really been excited for in my adult life. I wish Ron had changed the GOP in the way Sanders' wing is shaping up to change the Dems.

My best-case scenario right now is Bernie beats Biden, runs with Tulsi, and they run against Trump.

Trump being re-elected represents the status quo. It does finally bury the idea of Bernie ever being president though.

Worst case would be one of the mainstream Democrats winning the primary.

Final thoughts: With our system so broken, does any of this matter? Hard to feel convinced it does. I'm very pessimistic regarding change happening democratically, and take solace in the idea that technology will come to force it.
Last edited by DeathScythe on Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:26 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#2 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:38 am

I think if we just wait, society will fundamentally change on it's own, through technological progress.


A thoroughly Conservative viewpoint. I applaud you. :D

College.

Free college is a Democrat thing. But America overall is in love with college. If you're halfway intelligent, you have to go to college in order to have a fulfulling life. Or at least you have to experience college. Look no further than Aunt Becky who spent half a million dollars to send her dimwit daughters to college to go to games and party.

Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders are the only candidates I have really been excited for in my adult life. I wish Ron had changed the GOP in the way Sanders' wing is shaping up to change the Dems.


Ron changing the GOP was impossible. You don't change a mostly Conservative party. That's why there are so many fringe parties on the Right.

Final thoughts: With our system so broken, does any of this matter? Hard to feel convinced it does. I'm very pessimistic regarding change happening democratically, and take solace in the idea that technology will come to force it.


The system isn't broken. The people are. People are lazy. They'd rather post their opinion on Facebook or go to a protest than actually organize, recruit, vet, and elect men and women who are ready, willing, and able to serve.
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Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#3 » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:49 am

A lot of my time in the last ten years has been spent frequenting a couple of Traditional Catholic fora with overlapping memberships. A lot of the members are average Joe moms and dads dealing with the day to day problems of raising families in 21st centure USA. A lot of them are well educated college graduates who have informed thoughts on the direction the US and the world in general is headed. Some of it is guided by Catholic belief, but a lot of it is just looking at economics and places like Venezuela or Zimbabwe and drawing conclusions. These are people who are as distrustful of modern crony capitalism as they are socialism. Both systems are pushing the atomization of society from different directions.

Those of us who voted (quite a few have chose to opt out of the system) voted for Trump. Hillary and anyone who supports abortion rights is a non-starter as a candidate. Trump promised and has delivered on pro-life candidates (though the jury's still out on Kavanaugh not being wishy-washy). And he promised not to cave on immigration. That's still a work in progress, so we'll see. Those were the two most important issues in 2018. Other things he's done have been nice, like not being an out of control interventionist for the most part and NAFTA renegotiation.

Traditional Catholics, not run of the mill Catholics, would generally agree that college as it exists today is worthless as far as providing a sound education. People are graduating without a comprehensive liberal arts education; instead they're getting a hodgepodge of courses that aren't leading to a unitive whole. Wyoming Catholic College, Thomas Aquinas College in SoCal, and others, are places that offer only general liberal arts degrees without specialization. Sending kids for free to the diploma mills isn't going to help anything long term.

That's where I'm at. With all that in mind, I am pretty detached from events. Things probably aren't going to get any better regardless of who gets elected and they're most likely to get worse. Just a matter of who's going to press on the gas vs. who will do some braking.

DS, regarding your thinking on Biden, do you think he will be a viable candidate once his opponents start doing oppo research on his proclivity for getting touchy with the ladies?
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DeathScythe
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Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#4 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:44 am

Hey SOLDIER, nice to hear from you!

Free college is a Democrat thing. But America overall is in love with college. If you're halfway intelligent, you have to go to college in order to have a fulfulling life. Or at least you have to experience college. Look no further than Aunt Becky who spent half a million dollars to send her dimwit daughters to college to go to games and party.


I think vocational professions are more future-proof, and less prone to automation, than most of your degrees. Even STEM degrees, are more prone to automation in the future than your roofers, a/c repairmen, and dry wall specialists.

If we were to implement free college, I would probably shift all the basics to the existing public school system and extend high school some years, in order to shorten the length of time people spend in the more expensive institution. But what would everyone getting a free Associate's degree accomplish? It's now just the new lowest rung of the workforce, the average American, just as high school/GED is the average American now.

What really matters to Amercians, are jobs. About half the jobs in America fall into the categories of manufacturing, transportation, admin/office, retail, and food service. All require no college degree, all are immediately threatened in the near future. Some are already disappearing.

Ron changing the GOP was impossible. You don't change a mostly Conservative party. That's why there are so many fringe parties on the Right.


The parties have shifted enough over time that I don't think it's impossible. Just a change in popular opinion, and they would have still been fiscally conservative, plus inexplicably pro-life, had Ron Paul had his way.

The system isn't broken. The people are. People are lazy. They'd rather post their opinion on Facebook or go to a protest than actually organize, recruit, vet, and elect men and women who are ready, willing, and able to serve.


I wouldn't confuse apathy with laziness. There is both. I think apathy is one of the healthier ways to deal with our system. The SJW types you allude to are certainly not.

Seph,

Good to see your faith is still strong. I'm thinking since you capitalized "Traditional", that means it's one of those independent varieties of Catholic; is that a new development or has that always been the case? I know that can mean a lot of different things. I'm guessing by and large they are more conservative than your average catholic since the mainstream has become pretty liberal.

I think that's pretty cool and exotic, though. I'm still non-religious, although I have developed a stronger interest in religious history and minutia that happens to interest me.

Those of us who voted (quite a few have chose to opt out of the system) voted for Trump. Hillary and anyone who supports abortion rights is a non-starter as a candidate. Trump promised and has delivered on pro-life candidates (though the jury's still out on Kavanaugh not being wishy-washy). And he promised not to cave on immigration. That's still a work in progress, so we'll see. Those were the two most important issues in 2018. Other things he's done have been nice, like not being an out of control interventionist for the most part and NAFTA renegotiation.


I consider not voting in protest every single election, but then ultimately choose to "throw my vote away."

I'm not going to hold your litmus test against you, I have plenty of my own. You should consider how UBI might change society, the personal financial situation of young mothers, and the finances of young couples, and what that should lead to in terms of the abortion rate. Multiple roads to the same solution, so to speak, but this road does nothing to limit the freedom of mothers, and instead addresses a root cause (although certainly not the only one).

Curious as to why devout catholics are concerned with immigration, to the extent that it's one of the two most important issues. Although, a world in which the United States has UBI, would require a little more border security than we have now. I don't think the wall accomplishes much.

Traditional Catholics, not run of the mill Catholics, would generally agree that college as it exists today is worthless as far as providing a sound education. People are graduating without a comprehensive liberal arts education; instead they're getting a hodgepodge of courses that aren't leading to a unitive whole. Wyoming Catholic College, Thomas Aquinas College in SoCal, and others, are places that offer only general liberal arts degrees without specialization. Sending kids for free to the diploma mills isn't going to help anything long term.

That's where I'm at. With all that in mind, I am pretty detached from events. Things probably aren't going to get any better regardless of who gets elected and they're most likely to get worse. Just a matter of who's going to press on the gas vs. who will do some braking.


Agreed about college, and that more or less describes the pessimism I feel regarding politics. I expect status quo or worse, which is why I've been able to handle the Trump administration as it's....not as bad as one might have expected. Also not as good as one might have expected, as I thought Trump might have secretly implemented National Healthcare or something. Alas, that didn't transpire.

DS, regarding your thinking on Biden, do you think he will be a viable candidate once his opponents start doing oppo research on his proclivity for getting touchy with the ladies?


That's an interesting one, because the regressive left isn't tolerant of this. I can't say how it will play out, but I don't expect Democrats to bring this up on the debate stage. Bernie wouldn't even go low on Hillary.

I think because his actions are able to be described more aptly as "creepy" rather than "criminal", it's going to be swept under the rug, with the general thinking that it's not as egregious as things Trump has done or said.

I still think the contest unfolding as Bernie v Biden being the most likely scenario.
Last edited by DeathScythe on Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#5 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:28 pm

DeathScythe wrote:Hey SOLDIER, nice to hear from you!
Good to see your faith is still strong. I'm thinking since you capitalized "Traditional", that means it's one of those independent varieties of Catholic; is that a new development or has that always been the case? I know that can mean a lot of different things. I'm guessing by and large they are more conservative than your average catholic since the mainstream has become pretty liberal.

Trad Catholics come in a variety of flavors. 1) There are indies who are outside the institutional Church doing their own thing; they think the Catholic Church has gone totally off the rails. 2) There is a large org known as the SSPX, with associated groups, that has a complicated relationship with Rome. In some countries like France, it is producing more priests than the institutional Church. 3) And then there are groups within the institutional Church who are of the traditional mindset. They keep their heads down and do their thing. 4) Finally, there are small communities in the regular Church grouped around places where the pre-1970 Mass is held; these people run the gamut from serious Trad Catholics to folks who just like the aesthetic elements of the old Mass, but are otherwise average Catholics with mainstream sensibilities. Folks lament how Traditional Catholicism is pretty fractured. Also, terms like conservative are frowned upon. Traditional Catholics are not fond of classical liberalism. They view the relentless pursuit of personal freedom as a key component of society's problems today.

I think that's pretty cool and exotic, though.

Counter-cultural is a popular descriptor!

I'm not going to hold your litmus test against you, I have plenty of my own. You should consider how UBI might change society, the personal financial situation of young mothers, and the finances of young couples, and what that should lead to in terms of the abortion rate. Multiple roads to the same solution, so to speak, but this road does nothing to limit the freedom of mothers, and instead addresses a root cause (although certainly not the only one).

We'll have to agree to disagree then. No big secret that Catholics believe life begins at conception and abortion is murder.

Curious as to why devout catholics are concerned with immigration, to the extent that it's one of the two most important issues. Although, a world in which the United States has UBI, would require a little more border security than we have now. I don't think the wall accomplishes much.

Saints like Aquinas down through the centuries have written on the rights and obligations of the person and the state. People have the obligation to be charitable, but not at the expense of the integrity of their homes and communities. Mass migration of Third World peoples into the US isn't helping us or them long term. And as far as the bishops, the widely held view, confirmed now and then when the veil is down, is that the bishops push so hard for open borders because they see First World Americans leaving the Church en masse despite everything they've done to water down Catholic practice and need immigrants to fill the pews and pass the collection plates.

That's an interesting one, because the regressive left isn't tolerant of this. I can't say how it will play out, but I don't expect Democrats to bring this up on the debate stage. Bernie wouldn't even go low on Hillary.

I think because his actions are able to be described more aptly as "creepy" rather than "criminal", it's going to be swept under the rug, with the general thinking that it's not as egregious as things Trump has done or said.

I still think the contest unfolding as Bernie v Biden being the most likely scenario.

The chief politics bligger at a conservative blog I follow is pretty confirmed in his belief that Harris is the chosen one for the Dems this time around and the field will eventually be cleared for her. What do you think about her?
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DeathScythe
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Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#6 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:50 am

Trad Catholics come in a variety of flavors. 1) There are indies who are outside the institutional Church doing their own thing; they think the Catholic Church has gone totally off the rails. 2) There is a large org known as the SSPX, with associated groups, that has a complicated relationship with Rome. In some countries like France, it is producing more priests than the institutional Church. 3) And then there are groups within the institutional Church who are of the traditional mindset. They keep their heads down and do their thing. 4) Finally, there are small communities in the regular Church grouped around places where the pre-1970 Mass is held; these people run the gamut from serious Trad Catholics to folks who just like the aesthetic elements of the old Mass, but are otherwise average Catholics with mainstream sensibilities. Folks lament how Traditional Catholicism is pretty fractured. Also, terms like conservative are frowned upon. Traditional Catholics are not fond of classical liberalism. They view the relentless pursuit of personal freedom as a key component of society's problems today.


That's interesting. So where do you fall on this spectrum? I think it's reminiscent of the fractures in LDS, or even modern paganism and "traditional witchcraft" versus "Garnerian Wicca". Just in terms of doctrinal difference. I'm curious about it being so popular in France, the home of the Avignon Papacy.

So how does that mean you fall on the spectrum of overall Christianity? Do you see the mainstream Catholics as more of your natural ally, or perhaps protestants instead?

"Catholic" is one of the donominations I never visited when I was going through my religious experimentation phase. I did attend an Episcopalian church, which I figured was close.

If trad catholics don't like to identify as conservative, how do they prefer to identify in the U.S. political spectrum? Or are you all doing "least worst option" like me?

We'll have to agree to disagree then. No big secret that Catholics believe life begins at conception and abortion is murder.


I don't disagree on the issue overall, necessarily. Just on the point that the government needs to forbid something. To be blunt, I was getting at the idea that perhaps socialism does more to address root causes of abortion (financial anyway) than does the traditional conservative thought of prohibition and punishment. I know you see it as outright murder, and that's the divide here between us.

Nonetheless, I would love a world where a woman has no incentive to abort.

Saints like Aquinas down through the centuries have written on the rights and obligations of the person and the state. People have the obligation to be charitable, but not at the expense of the integrity of their homes and communities. Mass migration of Third World peoples into the US isn't helping us or them long term. And as far as the bishops, the widely held view, confirmed now and then when the veil is down, is that the bishops push so hard for open borders because they see First World Americans leaving the Church en masse despite everything they've done to water down Catholic practice and need immigrants to fill the pews and pass the collection plates.


We do have evidence that the market is capable of determining the number of immigrants that come here on its own, through negative rates seen following the recession.

I agree that immigration it isn't a long term solution, and maybe even exacerbates issues in their homeland. I was going to ask about the idea you addressed here, of the immigrants being primarily Catholic, and how that influenced your thinking. Certainly the overall numbers of Americans identifying as Roman Catholic are higher than they would be without Latin American immigration, but I don't know if that actually does anything for you personally considering you are non-mainstream? I figure we're going to have a "non-religious" plurality in this country very shortly, you know, and you can look up how those numbers have been going.

I used to be an open-borders guy, but it doesn't make sense to me in a world that isn't unified already. If the U.S. is doing UBI but Canada and Mexico aren't, then open borders are a terrible idea. I'm not opposed to the idea of a North American union though... If said North American union makes it a point to emphasize the individual freedom of the individuals within, and steps are taken to ensure it is non-authoritarian in nature.

The chief politics bligger at a conservative blog I follow is pretty confirmed in his belief that Harris is the chosen one for the Dems this time around and the field will eventually be cleared for her. What do you think about her?


Apparantly big news today that Biden's announcement was inadvertent, and maybe he's not running!? I should know better than to pay attention right now.

In that case, yes, Kamala is likely the chosen one, but I don't know that she beats Bernie. From what I can tell, she is one of these mainstream candidates that isn't really saying anything, speaking primarily in platitudes. She won't beat Trump. Basically Hillary Clinton; maybe less evil.

Beto raising more than Bernie in the first 24 hours was a big thing this weekend. (I'm sure significantly less donors.)

I think Beto eats more into Kamala's support than he does Bernie's. Beto may be the other mainstream candidate of choice, having recently backed off his universal health care stance a bit, which would seem to be a signal. He's always been more mainstream than Bernie.

Apparantly, getting 48% in a losing effort in Texas politics qualifies you for the golden ticket in the Democratic Party.

Also, let's not dismiss the idea of Andrew Yang amazes everyone to such a great extent in the debates, which he already qualifies for, and somehow we get the best-case scenario (for me).
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DeathScythe
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Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#7 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 12:05 pm

Also, full disclosure: I voted Obama 08, third party in 12, and third party in 16. If the Dems don't put up someone who I like, I don't vote for them. "Blue no matter who", means they need to vote for my candidate, because I'm not budging. In my view, they are a coercive institution that I support only begrudgingly, because I have no choice.

So I may not be the best example of standard Democratic thought, if that's what you're gauging.
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Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#8 » Wed Mar 20, 2019 6:26 pm

That's interesting. So where do you fall on this spectrum? I think it's reminiscent of the fractures in LDS, or even modern paganism and "traditional witchcraft" versus "Garnerian Wicca". Just in terms of doctrinal difference. I'm curious about it being so popular in France, the home of the Avignon Papacy.

I fall into number four, but with a trad mindset (though I mostly go to regular Masses due to logistics). Where I live in Iowa, there are not any Masses for two or three.

It is a big thing in France for a number of reasons. The founder of the SSPX was a Frenchman. The SSPX in France has a lot of overlap with the National Front with membership and some guiding principles, though differing goals (the le Pens are mostly secular).

So how does that mean you fall on the spectrum of overall Christianity? Do you see the mainstream Catholics as more of your natural ally, or perhaps protestants instead?

This gets into theology. In terms of how trads see society today, a lot of trads look at Putin and the Orthodox in Russia with not a little admiration. Orthodoxy in general though is seen as tainted; the patriarch in Istanbul is likes to style himself as the green patriarch. Evangelical protestants are seen as allies on abortion, but not anything else as they have no problems with birth control and their non-negotiable support of Israel is off-putting. Mainstream protestantism is just another organ for the SJWs of the world.

"Catholic" is one of the donominations I never visited when I was going through my religious experimentation phase. I did attend an Episcopalian church, which I figured was close.

It can be. I like to follow the Episcopal Church. Since the seventies, it has fractured in much the same way the Catholic Church may be now. The EC brought in women clergy and updated its liturgy, beginning the process of fracture back then. And over the past twenty years, it has been pretty brutal with constant lawsuits over property. The national organization is seen a pretty underhanded and tyrannical. Lutherans, Methodists, and others have all faced the same thing with traditional elements facing SJWs. Even Baptists are trending left as the hardliners like Robertson and Falwell die away.

If trad catholics don't like to identify as conservative, how do they prefer to identify in the U.S. political spectrum? Or are you all doing "least worst option" like me?

Least worst option or just opt out. If you have some time, read about Brent Bozell Jr. and his magazine Triumph. A lot of folks who know about him and his efforts back in the sixties and early seventies agree with his views to greater and lesser degrees. He and his associates saw the US as corrupted and called for a Catholic tribe to form as a society within a society. Disengage and wait for whatever was going to happen to happen. Bozell was expecting things to fall apart within the decade and when things didn't, he and his crew ran out of steam. But their analysis was on the mark and very prescient.

We do have evidence that the market is capable of determining the number of immigrants that come here on its own, through negative rates seen following the recession.

That's fine. Legal immigration needs to be reformed so that it is easier while at the same time big business can't bring in new workers to undermine their existing, well paid workforce. It's illegal immigration that is the problem with unskilled workers who will just undermine US citizen unskilled workers. Hordes of Central American and Mexican peasants aren't going to do anyone much good.

I agree that immigration it isn't a long term solution, and maybe even exacerbates issues in their homeland. I was going to ask about the idea you addressed here, of the immigrants being primarily Catholic, and how that influenced your thinking. Certainly the overall numbers of Americans identifying as Roman Catholic are higher than they would be without Latin American immigration, but I don't know if that actually does anything for you personally considering you are non-mainstream? I figure we're going to have a "non-religious" plurality in this country very shortly, you know, and you can look up how those numbers have been going.

There are a lot of factors at play here.
1. In Central and South America, the Catholic Church is dominated by Liberation Theology types. the common people are fleeing the Church and turning protestant in mass numbers. In countries where thirty years ago the percentage of Catholics was over 90%, it's now 60% and dropping rapidly as protestant groups continue to fill the gap left by post-Catholic bishops and their cronies. As an example, Benedict used to draw record crowds to Rome for his audiences where he would expound on sound Catholic stuff. Francis rarely fills St. Peter's Square with his SJW mumbo-jumbo.
2. Immigrants show up in the US and the first generation is soundly Catholic. The second generation is culturally Catholic, and the third is as secular as everyone else as they are Americanized. Thus the bishops need /more/ immigrants. It is a vicious cycle. People would be better off staying home if they cared anything about keeping their families in the Faith.

I used to be an open-borders guy, but it doesn't make sense to me in a world that isn't unified already. If the U.S. is doing UBI but Canada and Mexico aren't, then open borders are a terrible idea. I'm not opposed to the idea of a North American union though... If said North American union makes it a point to emphasize the individual freedom of the individuals within, and steps are taken to ensure it is non-authoritarian in nature.
What are your thoughts on a cashless society? You're positive on Yang and UBI. I agree with a lot of conservatives out there who see dystopianism in our future. Government gives citizens money to buy things, which then pays for government. There is no encouragement to save for the future; saving could even be penalized in a cashless society. :D

Apparantly big news today that Biden's announcement was inadvertent, and maybe he's not running!? I should know better than to pay attention right now.

In that case, yes, Kamala is likely the chosen one, but I don't know that she beats Bernie. From what I can tell, she is one of these mainstream candidates that isn't really saying anything, speaking primarily in platitudes. She won't beat Trump. Basically Hillary Clinton; maybe less evil.

I've read she getting pushback too due to her record as a prosecutor. Apparently she wasn't all that nice to People of Color.

Also, full disclosure: I voted Obama 08, third party in 12, and third party in 16. If the Dems don't put up someone who I like, I don't vote for them. "Blue no matter who", means they need to vote for my candidate, because I'm not budging. In my view, they are a coercive institution that I support only begrudgingly, because I have no choice.

So I may not be the best example of standard Democratic thought, if that's what you're gauging.

Nah, I'm not gauging you like that. But you are informed on the Dems, which I am not, so your thoughts on the different players is welcome.
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DeathScythe
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Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#9 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:09 pm

I fall into number four, but with a trad mindset (though I mostly go to regular Masses due to logistics). Where I live in Iowa, there are not any Masses for two or three.


I was trying to determine if you'd fair better in North Texas. My state is 32% Catholic. This is hard to determine apparantly. Going by anything labeled as "latin mass", there are 43 in the state of Texas, but a lot of that could just be category 4. Some of these are labeled "Independent", some "Diocese". There are 9 labeled as "SSPX". I would have to drive to North Richland Hills for that, which isn't unreasonable.

I also found a place nearby, that's a "FSSP" run church. They claim to be the only church in Dallas where traditional latin mass and sacraments are given on a daily basis. Is that something different? It's not even mentioned on the latin mass website.

This gets into theology. In terms of how trads see society today, a lot of trads look at Putin and the Orthodox in Russia with not a little admiration. Orthodoxy in general though is seen as tainted; the patriarch in Istanbul is likes to style himself as the green patriarch. Evangelical protestants are seen as allies on abortion, but not anything else as they have no problems with birth control and their non-negotiable support of Israel is off-putting. Mainstream protestantism is just another organ for the SJWs of the world.


My limited experience basically supports those thoughts, especially mainstream versus evangelical. My Methodist church that I attended pretty regularly avoided all controversial political issues. We had sermons about the "Problem of Hell" or "Problem of Evil", book author controversies, and plenty of stuff I found interesting. Didn't seem SJW, but it was also 2006. I was told that Methodists, unlike some denominations, don't shy away from "textual criticism".

Whenever the Da Vinci Code movie came out, I was attending regularly, and they did a whole multi-Sunday series going into the various allegations made by Dan Brown in the book and basically debunked much of it.

In the end, the one thing my minister agreed with Dan Brown on, was the poor treatment of women in the historical Christian church (which means you guys). And that, while he didn't think Jesus was married, as Methodists, this idea doesn't offend us like it does our "Catholic brothers and sisters across the street." He got called up to the greater UMC organization and now trains pastors. I stopped going after that.

In stark contrast, I once went to a buddy's Baptist church for some Strongman thing where roided up dudes bend pipes and break things for Jesus. One of the dudes led a prayer in which bringing back prayer to school was mentioned, abortion, and homosexuality, in succession, and it seemed like they were going out of their way to bring up every hot button thing. Really made me appreciate my Methodist church more.

I later went to UU for a bit, and then back to my teenage non-religious self. I think Buddhism is useful but don't feel any need to...practice it.

It can be. I like to follow the Episcopal Church. Since the seventies, it has fractured in much the same way the Catholic Church may be now. The EC brought in women clergy and updated its liturgy, beginning the process of fracture back then. And over the past twenty years, it has been pretty brutal with constant lawsuits over property. The national organization is seen a pretty underhanded and tyrannical. Lutherans, Methodists, and others have all faced the same thing with traditional elements facing SJWs. Even Baptists are trending left as the hardliners like Robertson and Falwell die away.


Episcopalian was a one time attendance for me, but the sermon involved the priest(?) singing at us, and all of us singing back. Not me of course, because I thought I was in bizzaro land and had no idea what was happening. Atmosphere, at best, could be considered "gloomy".

I also once attended a Mormon church, and some message was being beamed in on a TV about I guess the state of the greater LDS organization. It was not very entertaining, and the people there begged me, "You have to come back again, this wasn't a normal day!", but I didn't. I was trying to attend them all, no time for repeats.

Not totally surprised the religion is taking an overall left turn. Protestantism has always responded to the cultural climate for means of recruitment.

Least worst option or just opt out. If you have some time, read about Brent Bozell Jr. and his magazine Triumph. A lot of folks who know about him and his efforts back in the sixties and early seventies agree with his views to greater and lesser degrees. He and his associates saw the US as corrupted and called for a Catholic tribe to form as a society within a society. Disengage and wait for whatever was going to happen to happen. Bozell was expecting things to fall apart within the decade and when things didn't, he and his crew ran out of steam. But their analysis was on the mark and very prescient.


I'll check it out!

2. Immigrants show up in the US and the first generation is soundly Catholic. The second generation is culturally Catholic, and the third is as secular as everyone else as they are Americanized. Thus the bishops need /more/ immigrants. It is a vicious cycle. People would be better off staying home if they cared anything about keeping their families in the Faith.


Definitely see examples of this here in Texas. Is the phenomena the same regardless of ethnicity? We have some Vietnamese Catholic churches here.

What are your thoughts on a cashless society? You're positive on Yang and UBI. I agree with a lot of conservatives out there who see dystopianism in our future. Government gives citizens money to buy things, which then pays for government. There is no encouragement to save for the future; saving could even be penalized in a cashless society. :D


I'm fine with cashless societies, but the path of least resistance is UBI. I think cashless is more likely if we regress or there is some apocalypse scenario.

What Yang proposes, $1000 a month for all Americans, he predicts to cost $1.8T a year. Current federal budget is $4T. So, slightly less than half of current federal budget.

How well do you think the federal government spends our tax money, Seph? Do you think they spend it wisely? Or do you think you could spend it better? You could, on principal, hand it over to your traditional Catholic organization if you choose, or some other charity.

We're also talking about $1000; you will still have to work, save money, etc. Also, this money doesn't just go right back to the government, it goes back into the economy at large. Yes, the government takes it's cut as taxes again, but others also profit.

How much do you know about Yang, Seph? If you have time, I would again reccomend Andrew Yang's interview with Joe Rogan on YouTube. It's actually closer to 2 hours in length, I was mistaken before. I would be curious what you thought of his whole platform, as he tells it. I feel like I am doing a poor job.

I've read she getting pushback too due to her record as a prosecutor. Apparently she wasn't all that nice to People of Color.


Yep, that's the case. Bernie is pretty popular with the black community though, and has some key endorsements there.

Heard talk today of a Beto/Kamala being the ticket that would be hardest for Trump to beat. I obviously don't agree with that at all.

I've heard various people on the authoritarian left talk about refusing to vote for a white man, or being tired of "old white guys", and Biden and Beto don't really check any diversity boxes. However, this kind of leftist also won't vote for Bernie. Biden is considering Stacey Abrams as a running mate, don't know if that helps him.

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Sephiroth9611
Posts: 155
Location: Off-world colonies

Re: 2020 elections and current politics

Post#10 » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:13 pm

DeathScythe wrote:I was trying to determine if you'd fair better in North Texas. My state is 32% Catholic. This is hard to determine apparantly. Going by anything labeled as "latin mass", there are 43 in the state of Texas, but a lot of that could just be category 4. Some of these are labeled "Independent", some "Diocese". There are 9 labeled as "SSPX". I would have to drive to North Richland Hills for that, which isn't unreasonable.

I also found a place nearby, that's a "FSSP" run church. They claim to be the only church in Dallas where traditional latin mass and sacraments are given on a daily basis. Is that something different? It's not even mentioned on the latin mass website.

Driving an hour hour or more each way is something of a badge of honor. The one in Dallas, is that in Irving? FSSP is in group three. Its founders broke away from SSPX and reaffirmed their communion with Rome. Their church in Irving is their oldest outpost in the US, dating back to 1991.

My limited experience basically supports those thoughts, especially mainstream versus evangelical. My Methodist church that I attended pretty regularly avoided all controversial political issues. We had sermons about the "Problem of Hell" or "Problem of Evil", book author controversies, and plenty of stuff I found interesting. Didn't seem SJW, but it was also 2006. I was told that Methodists, unlike some denominations, don't shy away from "textual criticism".

Whenever the Da Vinci Code movie came out, I was attending regularly, and they did a whole multi-Sunday series going into the various allegations made by Dan Brown in the book and basically debunked much of it.

In the end, the one thing my minister agreed with Dan Brown on, was the poor treatment of women in the historical Christian church (which means you guys). And that, while he didn't think Jesus was married, as Methodists, this idea doesn't offend us like it does our "Catholic brothers and sisters across the street." He got called up to the greater UMC organization and now trains pastors. I stopped going after that.

The United Methodist Church at a recent meeting reaffirmed narrowly the definition of marriage as between men and women. The SJWs were not happy and have gone forward with efforts to undermine things locally. I read somewhere an opinion piece about how the Methodists should look at what happened to the Episcopal Church and the Lutherans and realize separating peacefully is better than fighting it out for control.

Mainstream Catholic churches run the gamut of stuff like this based on the preferences of the parish priest and the local bishop. In one place, heaven and hell and sin could be on the menu in a sermon, and across the river in a different diocese, it could be all feel-good "Jesus loves us" talk with little substance. Traditional groups stick to heaven and hell and sin sermons. The SSPX and the fringe groups have freedom of course to criticize the institutional Church's progressive tilt as they don't have any oversight. FSSP and groups like it operate under the local bishops, so they have to toe the line.

[quoteIn stark contrast, I once went to a buddy's Baptist church for some Strongman thing where roided up dudes bend pipes and break things for Jesus. One of the dudes led a prayer in which bringing back prayer to school was mentioned, abortion, and homosexuality, in succession, and it seemed like they were going out of their way to bring up every hot button thing. Really made me appreciate my Methodist church more.[/quote]
Heh. I can see that type of thing maybe being something a men's group may have, but not during a worship service/Mass. Trying too hard, I'd say.

I later went to UU for a bit, and then back to my teenage non-religious self. I think Buddhism is useful but don't feel any need to...practice it.

Episcopalian was a one time attendance for me, but the sermon involved the priest(?) singing at us, and all of us singing back. Not me of course, because I thought I was in bizzaro land and had no idea what was happening. Atmosphere, at best, could be considered "gloomy".

I also once attended a Mormon church, and some message was being beamed in on a TV about I guess the state of the greater LDS organization. It was not very entertaining, and the people there begged me, "You have to come back again, this wasn't a normal day!", but I didn't. I was trying to attend them all, no time for repeats.

Not totally surprised the religion is taking an overall left turn. Protestantism has always responded to the cultural climate for means of recruitment.

I've always been firmly Catholic, so have never gone around to check out other groups, aside from when i was a kid and went to church with my Lutheran grandparents. My shift to traditional thinking happened after I graduated from university and discovered stuff on the Web to go along with my already-present disillusionment with the mainstream Church. I always perceived something was wrong, but after university, I learned specifics about the loss of Catholic identity in the wake of Vatican II.

Definitely see examples of this here in Texas. Is the phenomena the same regardless of ethnicity? We have some Vietnamese Catholic churches here.

I don't know. Iowa invited in Vietnamese in the 70s, so there are Vietnamese Catholics in some of our cities. I don't know if they've shrunk since they first got here or not.

How well do you think the federal government spends our tax money, Seph? Do you think they spend it wisely? Or do you think you could spend it better? You could, on principal, hand it over to your traditional Catholic organization if you choose, or some other charity.

It spends our money horribly. The feds are raking in more tax revenue than ever before and we still have public debt north of twenty trillion and a budget deficit that only grows with each omnibus spending package. The GOP establishment in Congress, despite all the talk of small government, has done absolutely nothing. It has instead aided and abetted the debt spiral. Trump has never made the budget and the debt an issue, so I can't hold it against him, but if he is so big on economic matters, he has to realize he's going to have to do something eventually. My Catholic friends and I agree that regardless, it will be too little, too late.

How much do you know about Yang, Seph? If you have time, I would again reccomend Andrew Yang's interview with Joe Rogan on YouTube. It's actually closer to 2 hours in length, I was mistaken before. I would be curious what you thought of his whole platform, as he tells it. I feel like I am doing a poor job.

I have seen a commercial or two and looked at his website since you mentioned him here. You're explaining him fine. As he tells it, if it were to all come off in an ideal world, it would be great, I'm sure. But it's not an ideal world and I just don't think government could ever pull off such things in an efficient manner that didn't end up screwing things up even more.

Yep, that's the case. Bernie is pretty popular with the black community though, and has some key endorsements there.

Heard talk today of a Beto/Kamala being the ticket that would be hardest for Trump to beat. I obviously don't agree with that at all.

I've heard various people on the authoritarian left talk about refusing to vote for a white man, or being tired of "old white guys", and Biden and Beto don't really check any diversity boxes. However, this kind of leftist also won't vote for Bernie. Biden is considering Stacey Abrams as a running mate, don't know if that helps him.

I read a headline the other day about how Biden is the pupular choice among world leaders due to his foreign policy connections from the Senate and as VP. They are looking for someone who will push back against Trump's nationalist economic policies. That won't help him with grassroots voters, but I bet the big donors pay attention.
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